Navigating Financial Conversations in Relationships with Lindsey Carnick

 Lindsay, welcome to the podcast. So excited to chat today about stress, anxiety, couples, dealing with that, and finances. Tell us just a little bit about who you are. Well, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me, Delene. This is great. I'm a therapist. I see adult individuals and couples. I'm licensed in nine states, and I also do quite a bit of keynote speaking for professional organizations, educational organizations, companies, continuing education events, retreats, conventions. Yeah, very good. So excited to dive into some of the questions I've got and hear the expertise from your side. I know when I was doing my coaching certification, You know, we, we dabbled a little bit in financial therapy just so we could understand that's beyond you and that recognition so we could actually move forward. So I'm excited for this to kind of go a layer deeper than where my expertise lies. So to kick us off, how can couples create a safe space for discussing finances without conflict? That's such a good question and such a meaningful question. Yes, because very few people aren't dealing with finances in some way. There are very few people I know. I don't know about you, but that's not some kind of consideration. Most people are not avoiding that. Yes. And I also think it's so interesting that we as a culture. Are super aware of how hot button other issues are in couples and relationships, but to your point, we were talking just a minute ago, you know, financial discussions money still seems awfully taboo. And it's really interesting because many people have gotten to the point where they're very comfortable saying something about how their family history or how they were raised or the culture in their family impacts XYZ in their adult life, but not money. They don't talk about that almost at all. And I find that really interesting because in many ways it's no different than how did your family culture influence your attitudes about XYZ. Right. That's a part of your adult life. And yet it remains this police lines do not cross kind of territory. So, When it comes to cultivating a safe space for discussions about finances and money and goals and priorities, the same rules apply as every other safe space, yes? Your partner needs to know that firstly, you're on their side. That this is not an adversarial engagement. Yes, this is your partner, not your opponent. And often on any of these topics, when we already have the sense that there's a disagreement, or we're not on the same page, or maybe one person is having some severe doubts or concerns that the other person isn't, we sort of default into this, me and you, Mentality and I'm over here on this side of the volleyball net and you're over there on that side of the volleyball net and this is oppositional. You better believe me and I'm going to spike this ball across the net with enough force to make sure you get it right and it's there's going to be a winner and there's going to be a loser and I don't want to be the loser. So I guess I got to be the winner. Yes. And so when people come out the gate without sort of win lose mentality, obviously, you've already lost the team mentality. If you're when you're on a team, you're not trying to beat your teammates. Right? That's completely antithetical to being on a team. You are allegedly working together for a common purpose and understood goal. So taking a minute or anything else before you get into even the generalities, let alone the weeds of what you're talking about, and reminding yourself, looking lovingly at this person and reminding yourself, this is my teammate. This person is on my side, and just as on any team, there may be disagreements about how to get the ball in the net, right? And people may be advocating for one strategy over another, or one play over another, or one piece of equipment over another. But everybody has a shared goal, and there's a shared understanding that this person next to you on this team wants the same thing you do at the end of the day. And reminding yourself that this is not an opponent situation is a really important first step to creating any safe space. Because once you've done that, you can operate with what we call PPI. Presumed positive intent, which is exactly what it sounds like. And it's better than benefit of the doubt. Benefit of the doubt is like, hmm, neutral, presumed innocent till guilty, but I have my suspicions. Presumed positive intent suggests that, no, I'm going to come into this with the assumption that you and I both have positive intent towards the same thing. And I'm going to keep that firmly in front of me, no matter how many detailed disagreements we have, because it's going to change the spirit of the whole dialogue. And when you say something that I find like, a little iffy, instead of going, Oh, you're my, you're my opponent, I'm going to go, Oh, I don't know. That seems weird to me, but I'm not going to take it as an assault on what I'm trying to get done or my values or my priorities because my values, priorities, what we're trying to get done are also yours. That's the essence of a team, yeah? That's the first step to creating safe space in any tough discussion. Yeah, I really like the idea of a team. I think There's kind of that individuality because there is one person that is responsible or tasked with, you know, the details of it and handling. And then they're the ones bringing that there. And so, yeah, it's, it's a hard role, I think, for a lot of us to play. And then there's a statistic that 85 percent of women Are responsible for the day to day finances. So being able to, you know, manage them. I don't want to say manage them well, but be managing in them so that you're aware, I think will help create these conversations. are the ease of these conversations so much better. But why do you feel financial conversations can be emotionally charged? And how can couples navigate this, like what brings in that emotion besides the fact that, Oh, I think you're my opponent. Sure. Well, firstly, the idea of money, which is a resource and all the resources, not all resources, many resources are scarce. Yeah. And it's, it's anxiety inducing out the gate. As a general concept. Yes, money is something that we rely on heavily for what we consider to be the quality of our lives. And that's not completely untrue. The quality of our lives is not solely around, hopefully, material things. Things or financial status, but certainly it would be, I think, ridiculous to say that there's not a quality of life issue at stake for most people when it comes to finances. So I think we have to start by understanding that money is anxiety provoking for everybody. In some way, people handle that differently. It comes out differently, but is fundamentally the same experience for most people. And so, the charge is coming from each individual before there's ever any engagement as a, as a couple or as a, as a unit or as a team, everybody's bringing their own anxieties about what it means to be financially stable, financially prepared, financially unstable, financially unprepared, right? These are all very subjective designations that mean very different things to different people. Secondly, money and finances are really symbolic of a lot of things for people. They're not just symbolic of your family culture, or what money meant in your family, or what it was used for, or perhaps weaponized for but it, it, you know, ultimately money In some ways, it's about a kind of value, right? And the lessons we learn in our families and communities of origin, there are multiple levels of that, certainly, about what should be valued, what can be valued, how it's valued, how it's undervalued, what it says about you if you do value this thing over that thing, how it should be, I mean, we have these layers and years, lifetimes of narrative. about what value should mean, including money. And so not only is the idea of this scarce resource anxiety provoking, but all of these historical swirling patterns and histories that we all bring to the table about what money means and looks like and what that says about our values makes the stakes feel even higher, right? We want to be known. As this thing and not that thing we want to be known as responsible and not irresponsible We want to be known as generous and not stingy. We want to be known as forward thinking and not impulsive Or maybe not, right? I mean, the, the, the, what those things mean to different people are so subjective, right? And the clashes tend to come in where people feel like their values are being challenged as opposed to like financial sense about should we open this kind of IRA or that kind of Roth, right? That's not the problem. The problem is what that all means to someone and what it means to them when somebody challenges that, right? Because For many of us, when someone says, Oh, I don't think that's a good idea. What we hear is, I don't think your values are good. I don't like the way you prioritize that in your meaning schema. And I'm pushing back on that. Which is much harder to swallow than, Oh, here are the reasons I think Schwab is better than fidelity. You know, that's not emotional. That right there is not an emotional inducing statement but value questioning or what we hear as value challenging, feels very, very threatening, especially if and when it's connected to our families of origin, because there's some part of us that goes, Oh, I see. And you don't like the way my mother did business either. Hmm. Are you judging my mother now too? Huh? Right? There's some part of us that sort of rears up in this very defensive, hostile, I don't like what you're implying by thinking you have a better idea than I do kind of a scenario. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. So to kind of go along with that, how can couples come together on shared, you know, financial goals? While also maintaining individual spending preferences, like what it, how can they kind of maybe define that to support, you know, taking the emotion out of it, we've already defined, here's our goals together, and here's what you can do separately. Yeah. Well, In some measure, I think that is a question for financial planners, because the reality of that question is very relative to where people are in their financial lives and what those goals are, and it can be really helpful to have an objective person who can objectively look at the numbers, who has neither person's set of emotional attachments or baggage or any of those things, to say like, Look, people, here's what we have. Here's the reality. Tell me what your needs are or what you think your needs are or your desires, and I'll tell you what I think is practical and responsible, and, slight plug for NAPSA, which is you can go to napsa. org and find a fee only financial planner. These are wonderful people who are fee only. They don't make money off investments, and, and really talk to somebody who can be impartial. From aside from the emotional aspect in a way that most of us cannot, no matter how hard we try. And it's okay to admit that this is not a problem. This is just saying, Hey, I'm emotionally attached to this. And it would be helpful to have somebody who is not, you know, giving us some feedback about what's doable and not doable. You know, I think maybe the other answer there or the other possibility is that when we talk about what people want or what they need, right. In terms of. You know our financial life and in my financial life these these things we're doing together and this is mine. Yes. Everybody has a different threshold Based on their temperament, their history, their history with money, there are people who have financial trauma in their past from their family of origin, from how they were raised from previous partners, from scams, from relationships, I mean, all, all manner of traumas that relate to financial well being. And it's okay to say, like, look, this is what makes this person feel comfortable. It's not hurting us to let this person have this set up. Whatever that set is up is because it gives them some peace of mind. And again, the key is, as long as it's not hurting the bigger picture, creating peace of mind for somebody is an absolute gift and a blessing. And sometimes we try and outsmart ourselves, you know, in the sense that we go, you know, okay, partner B, you have this idea about what will make you comfortable, but that doesn't make as much sense as if we Option Q, right? And that's unhelpful because at the end of the day, one, you can't reason somebody out of their feelings. Okay? If somebody needs 100, 000 in the savings account to feel safe from disaster, then they do. And you're not going to logic them out of that, okay, because they have their own logic, believe it or not. They've arrived at that based on the logic of their history, okay, and so we have to be very aware of how subjectively judgmental we get about other people's logic, right? That doesn't make sense, this does. No, trust me. If that person's arrived at that, it makes sense to them, and that's all you need to know. And we don't have to agree with that, let's pick the arbitrary number 100, 000 to feel like you have a good rainy day fund. Some people would say that's ridiculous, that's an insane amount of money for a rainy day fund. Some people would say that's the bare minimum. There's no right or wrong on this, yes? It's, it's, do you want to give your partner 100, The gift of peace of mind. Why wouldn't you? Why would you litigate the logic of something that's emotional anyway? You just say to this person, Okay, you know what? If it were up to me, that's not what I would need in the bank for a rainy day fund to feel good, but if that's what's going to give you peace of mind and a higher quality of life, and I love you, and I want you to have peace of mind and a higher quality of life, so I'm not going to try and debate you out of this by presenting my rationale for why 50k is good. So there's a fundamental respect for Not being able to identify with how other people feel about it, but respect it anyway, and go, you know what? It certainly doesn't hurt us to have a hard 7k in a rainy day font. It won't hurt you. At all. And, and sometimes, you know, Working with a financial advisor of some sort or financial counselor can really help you be into making those sorts of decisions in a pragmatic way that covers everybody's basis because everybody wants peace of mind. And if you're on the same team. You want your partner to have peace of mind, whether it's what you need or not. If we go back to a literal team analogy, we could say, let's just say your, your teammate, you're on a soccer team, okay? And your teammate has a superstition, and before every game, he takes a, a sharpie and writes something on his calf. You don't care. It's helping him. He feels good about it. You don't, there's no reason to try and tell that person that that's not what they should be doing. You don't have to do it if you don't need it or if that doesn't make you feel good, but there's no reason to rain on them. I love that I loved when you said, it's a gift, Not understanding somebody's logic. It happens a lot, but to recognize that it is their logic and they got there and to allow them to have that, that's you allowing them a gift, if you're giving a gift. If you're absolutely giving a gift. And it's interesting because you're not just giving a gift to that person, you're giving a gift to yourself. As part of that team, you are giving yourself the gift of trusting that you are on a team with a teammate who knows themselves and is speaking up for themselves and what you don't want is someone who doesn't speak up for what they need. That's the death knell right there for trust. Okay, and sometimes when, you know, we see this on a small level in our relationships all the time, if you start to hammer on your partner, or really anybody, with your logic about why they shouldn't feel the way they do about anything, they will stop telling you, they will stop talking, they will stop communicating, because it's no longer, forget being a safe space, it's no longer a hospitable space, nobody wants that. And when people stop talking. It's because they've stopped trusting and that's a slippery slope. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that kind of leads us into my next question about what are some habits or routines couples can have or start putting in place to create this healthy communication? I mean, we've talked about a lot there. You know, are there some other things they can lean on? Or to just like you said, if they've shut down and not talking, it's because they don't trust you anymore. Like, how can they make sure that what they're trying is best? You know, I think sometimes we are like, well, I'm doing the best thing I know and I'm doing, I'm doing good. And from their perspective, but you know, how can you help them kind of come together with maybe routines or habits or, you know, daily suggestions, weekly suggestions, something like that. Certainly professional help is really helpful. It's not to be underrated. And one of the things that I like to point out to people, whether they're individuals or couples, is that professional help doesn't mean you have to sign up to go in and see a therapist once a week for the next two years. That doesn't mean, maybe you see somebody four times, and you get a little outside perspective and you have somebody go, you know I can see the forest here and let me give you a description of the tree, okay, and what's happening. And people find that so relieving so quickly because it takes the burden off of them to think for themselves and for the couple at the same time. When you're having big feelings, it's really hard to be strict with people. You're, you're sort of preoccupied with your big feelings. That's the way it should be. That's okay, but it's helpful to have somebody who's not having big feelings on either side of the, the thing to be able to have a look and help you through that and say, here's what I would recommend that you do to help with this specific thing that you're experiencing to get to the specific goal that you want to get to. And you should have a specific goal, what is it that you want to be different? In your relational functioning around money. What's the before and what's the aspirational after you should have a very clear picture of that. So professional help is always good. And you can go for 1 session or 5 sessions or 500 sessions or somewhere in between. It doesn't matter. Use it. It's there for you. People are really good at that. Secondly. I like to suggest that people do this little exercise as often as possible. And the exercise is that you pick a really low stakes. In fact, when I say low, I mean no stakes issue. Zero stakes. An example of a zero stakes issue is what do you like on your pizza? Zero stakes, now, assuming you don't both have identical tastes of pizza, that's fine. It has to be something that you do not overlap completely in the Venn diagram with. The fear, one of the primary fears around having hard conversations, okay, the reason people avoid them is because they're afraid of disconnecting. And they're afraid that when they have difficult conversations, they will feel even more disconnected from their partner. And so they avoid them, which ironically creates more disconnection. It's just a different kind of disconnection. It's becoming passively disconnected instead of the fear of, if I actively engage in this, we will feel less connected because we will have a disagreement, we will have a fight, we will have a conflict. Yeah? And so this is why people avoid them. And I love to tell people and show people, because this really is a remarkable thing to experience if you haven't experienced it before, that you can have a flagrant disagreement and stay 100%. And that is a mind blowing thing to experience if you've never experienced it before. Because two things tend to happen when people start to even sense disconnection. One is they preemptively withdraw. Because they're afraid of the other person withdrawing first, and they don't want to be, it's like, you want to be the break upper, not the break ee, right, in a break up. So people go like, oh, you're going to disconnect from me, I'm going to, I'm going to withdraw first, right, I'm going to sort of standoffish in a loop, and maybe stonewall, or maybe, you know, get a little sour, whatever it may be, before you do. I'm preempting you disconnecting from me by disconnecting from you because it's so painful to be disconnected from, so people, that's how people get into fights as opposed to like disagreement is they're having a disagreement and then they preemptively, someone preemptively either withdraws or starts throwing grenades because they're afraid of being the one who gets disconnected from. So they, they do it first. Yes. So to find out that you can have a disagreement, you can qua a fight. Remain connected is really, really remarkable. And what I like to suggest people do is that they sit down on the floor, okay? Legs crossed. So your knees are touching. Your partner and you hold out your hand and you put your hands so one person's hands are on top of one person. So you're functionally holding him right in the middle. Somebody's hands are resting on their legs. Yes, you see it. Then you lean in so your forehead's almost touching. So you are physically connected at the knees, the hands, and almost the forehead. And then You have a disagreement about pizza toppings because pizza toppings is no stakes. Yes. And you see what it looks like to stay connected and stay curious about something that you're disagreeing about because chances are you're going to be able to resist pulling back or throwing a grenade over pizza toppings because it's no stakes. Yes. I mean, maybe for some people, hard to say. Once we find out that we can disagree and stay connected. That we can hold hands. I mean, this is alien concept people, because our instinct is like, Oh, things just got a little tense. I'm going to drop your hand, I'm going to move away. I'm going to distance my body posture. All of a sudden, it's going to say, Oh, I'm just connecting from you. You're, you're about to disconnect from me. No, I'm going to do it first. So to stay in that physical frame and have a disagreement is so powerful. So, so powerful. And because the physical connection sort of deescalates The inclination to emotionally disconnect, you find yourself having a completely different conversation in which defensiveness Stonewalling criticism, contempt, all the, as the Gottmans called them, the four horsemen of the, of the relational apocalypse, just don't come up because you're not afraid of becoming disconnected. So you don't have to use those weapons because there's no risk. You can disagree all day long. You can have a vehement disagreement about whether olives are gross or not. Nobody's going anywhere. And you feel confident that no matter how deep the disagreement gets, nobody is going anywhere. And once people feel confident that the connection is going to stay in place, then they feel really open and at ease to say like, well, I really do think olives are the grossest thing on the planet. And quite frankly, the last time somebody, you know, got an olive anywhere near my pizza, I sent it back to the kitchen because I just can't even have a singular slice of olive on my pizza. And the other person goes, Oh my gosh, you're a nut. Olives are the nectar of the gods, you know, and everybody laughed. Yeah. Yeah. Because nobody's afraid that somebody's going to withdraw, as opposed to people doubling down and litigating their position, and becoming oppositional, because they fear the distance. I love that. A very Simple exercise to put into place for those more difficult times. So good. So enlightening. So thank you for all of your thoughts and all of your words. Do you have any last bit of information you would love to let listeners know about stress and anxiety, couples, anything? Well, yes, so many things. One would be, I would encourage, just on the tales of the last thing we were talking about, I would encourage everybody to take a second and imagine this. What would it be like if instead of saying to your partner, we need to talk, and you guys sit down at the kitchen table like across from each other and somebody's got a notebook and the lights are dim. What would it be like if you treated every conversation, no matter how big and hairy the topic, as one that could be had sitting on the floor? With your knees touching, holding each other's hands with your forehead. Just imagine that for a second. I'm not saying, is it possible? Do you believe that's true? Any of that? Imagine what it would be like if you went into every hard conversation with your partner, with the assumption that they were one on your team, two wanted to meet your needs. In addition to getting their own needs met and three. are going to stay connected to you and that you don't have to fear disconnection. How will you show up differently? If you believe that that is what was going to happen and the answer is startling for most people when they imagine how different that would look if they never had another conversation sitting at the kitchen table or whatever your serious conversation spot is, right? If every conversation had the spirit of no matter how hard this is, no matter how many big feelings I have, no matter how hurt my feelings are. I trust. That you're still on my team and that I can have hurt feelings and it doesn't mean that you switch teams It means that there was an accident and that you want to help me with that in the same way that when you imagine a Beach volleyball competition and once in a while somebody goes for something and they actually like elbow the other person's face Okay, the other person's genuinely hurt. I mean people get their nose broken doing this all the time, right? It doesn't mean that their teammate doesn't want to help them with their broken nose. It doesn't mean that you hit me in the face. You must not be my teammate. It means that hard things happen when you're on a team. And sometimes instead of spiking the ball across the net, you accidentally whack your teammate in the face and your teammate can hear that from you. They can hear you say, Oh my God, I can't believe you hit me in the face. And they will say, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, not well, you should have looked out where you're going. You got to trust that they're on your team, even if you're upset with them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that you can have heart conversations with hurt feelings, with all of those things and maintain the trust. And that's true everywhere in your life. Yeah. I loved you basically summarized everything we discussed. Those three simple points. came down to a different perception on having hard conversations. And I love that. I absolutely love that. So Lindsay, where can the listeners connect with you to learn more, to reach out for help or all of the, those things? I'm on the web at OnwardPsychServices. com. That's P S Y C H PsychServices. com. Onward because I believe in moving forward, not backwards, nor staying still. Yes. You can certainly find me under Lindsey Karnick Therapist on Instagram. Every Wednesday I publish practical, tactical videos with practical, tactical coping skills that people can use immediately. I like actionable advice that doesn't require additional Time carve outs or equipment or facilitation, anything that nobody has time for anyway. So I'm on Instagram. I'm on YouTube. I think I'm basically in all the places under, under Lindsey Karnick LinkedIn, so on and so forth. I also have a phone number. I answer the phone. It turns out those things rank and then you can like do that, like what we're doing. You can, and I answer the phone and my phone number's on my website or people can fill out a contact us form if you'd like. Awesome. I love that. All of the contact information will be in the show notes. So if you have been inspired by Lindsay and you're like, I need to know more, go call her, go call her. Cause she will answer. So thank you, Lindsay, for being here. I appreciate your time and your advice. My absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. It's been a, it's been a delight.